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Remarkable Reads by Nichrysalis

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      Music has long since been a part of human culture and has served not only as a means of enjoyment and congregation, but also as a link between humans that connects like-minded individuals together and helps to give explanation to the practices of people. The Hip-Hop genre, or rather art form, is one of many different shades of emotion, and it expresses these emotions with a plethora of different lyrics, some which may and often do offend others. For that reason Hip-Hop is often labeled as being the most negative form of music in modern history. Though hip-hop does have it's darker sides, these deep areas of emotion in hip-hop's repertoire of songs are often misunderstood. Hip-Hop, as a genre, should not be criticized because of its "negatively influential lyrics," as its positives outweigh it's negatives. Hip-Hop has given more support to the inner city youth of America than any other form of music or entertainment in the past 50 years or more. Because of this, it is hard to understand why it is being put under such a negative light.
   
   Hip-Hop is an explosive genre filled with emotion and talent, which has given youth all across the world an industry to place themselves in that mirrors the environment they've become accustomed to. With its "street life" persona, hip-hop has gained significant grounds and appeals not only to the inner city American youth, but also adolescent, and occasionally adult audiences all around the world. The genre's high sense of verity is it's largest area of critique though, as the street life portrayals garnish more than a handful of negative lyrics, and often influence the impressionable youth to act in a manner considered less than respectable (McWhorter 1). For this reason, the majority of those who have listened to a "hip-hop" song consider the genre's lyrics disrespectful, negatively influential, and repressive to this generation's youth. With this view, disputers of the genre say the mark it has left on kids and even adults has scarred us rather than helped, and should be removed from the media and our culture. Before making a case of what should be done with something you do not favor, it is important to explore the origins of what it is you disagree with so strongly. Hip-Hop is entirely different than rapping, gangster life, or sexist statements. Hip-Hop is the ladder in the hole of oppression used by the oppressed to climb their way out.

     In the early days, Hip-Hop, having started in the ghettos of New York City, could be categorized as upbeat party music that discussed issues no more important than having fun and enjoying popularity. Though as time progressed Hip-Hop music adopted a darker tone and began to explore areas of America's impoverished culture that many had neglected to listen to for years (McWhorter 2). In the dawn of its existence, common lyrics involved boasts about dancing skill and being able to rhyme well, in addition to being able to keep a crowd of fans entertained. Unity was strong, and often rappers formed groups with childhood friends, or even siblings. In the late 1970s all you could hear was the beat from a boom box and lyrics like: "…now what you hear is not a test, I'm rappin to the beat and me, the groove, and my friends are gonna try to move your feet…" as sung by Grand Master Flash in "Rappers Delight". However, as hip-hop grew more popular, it grew more controversial as well.  "Don't push me 'cause I'm close to the edge, I'm tryin' not to loose my head, it's like a jungle sometimes it makes me wonder, how I keep from going under…", though much more mild than what we hear today, is in essence the first appearance of direct expression of an artist regarding the trials of everyday life in the inner-city. "The Message" was one of the first to explore the idea of violent rebuttals in regards to the stresses of inner city life. The overall message conveyed in the song was to say that because life in the ghetto is so frustrating and negative, that to the artist, violence is not only a logical way of expressing his feelings, but that it can be justified by the pressure of that lifestyle's effects on everyday man (McWhorter 2). Not even a year after "The Message" in 1982, groups like Public Enemy surfaced and took their lyrical perspective to a political level. This specific group was known for bringing to the table issues of controversy such as racism, sexism, and unfair treatment of urban folk in the media, and discussing their thoughts of such issues outright in their music. The album Fear of a Black Planet was one of high controversy as it spoke of how Public Enemy believed the government to be phobic of the world being controlled by a predominantly black upper class. Though controversial, the album was praised for raising discussion artistically on a subject many felt should not be talked about. Chuck D, one of the leaders of Public Enemy, dubbed the rap element of hip-hop music the "…black CNN of America…" (Chang). In saying that, it caused other artists to turn to a lyrically positive side and rap about things everyone else was afraid to rap about.  It could be said that Public Enemy and their influence on the genre is the reason why hip-hop has such a high rebellious rate in fans and supporters.

     During the period of time known as "The Golden Age of Hip Hop", which lasted just a short span from the late 1980s to the early 1990s, rap artists were known to contribute positively to the genre and to the genre's listeners (Dunn). As hip-hop's popularity grew, its radio airtime spanned from just the predominantly black audience stations to ones with a larger group of listeners with different ethnic backgrounds. Wealthy suburban whites started to listen to the voice of the inner city, and began to invest in the Hip-Hop industry more than ever and with more money involved the hip-hop industry became a monopoly, and the genre gave birth to several subgenres. The impoverished youth was still upset with the inconsistency of change in the poorer neighborhoods of America and "Gangsta Rap" emerged as the new voice of the 1990s generation (Mervis). By explicitly stating their minds, the youths of cities from Compton CA, to New York, New York, got off their chests what they'd been dying to say. Lyrics filled with talk of illegal drug trafficking and flamboyant reckless violence became the usual subjects in mainstream rap, while the positive lyrics seemed to dwindle away into Hip-Hop's near decade and a half history. The tectonic shift in the genre's overall message it seemed to be conveying catapulted Hip-Hop into an entirely new world of success, however this 'success' was actually a slowly evolving demise.

      Nas, a critically acclaimed artist has said that rappers in this day and age are under the impression that they'll be unsuccessful if they step outside of the mainstream rap boundaries. In his generation (the golden age of hip-hop) many rappers emerged and went through the struggles of verbally expressing themselves through their lyrics while also fighting to get their material played. He believes that the artists of his generation understand the roots of hip-hop and have matured in a way that allows them to convey their messages clearer and with less usage of profanity. "Everybody forgot the fun and the art of the game, so that now people do not know what it is anymore…" he says. "We forgot that it's about more than just money… You've got to enjoy your life and live the American Dream, but at the same time you can't let money run you." (Jones). What makes hip-hop such a great thing for so many is that it is one of the only forms of art that allows the artist to accurately communicate with the audience and make the audience feel the emotion of the artist. Hip-Hop is a music for those who struggle, and many early artists in the genre had only hip-hop itself to save them from a life of thievery, drug dealing and murder, proof of this is often displayed in many artist's lyrics like Notorious B.I.G. or Big L. Every now and then though, a performer has it "up to here" with what's happening around them, and that forces them to cry out in the oddest ways.

     As police violence against blacks and hispanics grew more frequent by the day, residents of cities like Los Angeles, and Compton began to fuel outrage. Fed up with years of abuse from the "system" or "the man," artists spoke out with high amounts of violence against the ruling class of everyday Americans. Politicians, police officers and the like, were now being directly targeted in rap lyrics. In addition to Gangsta Rap, Horrorcore exists as another subgenre of hip-hop, and it has picked up quite a following. Though not as large of a following as "gangsta" rap, horrorcore does have fans that could be considered those "affected" by hip-hop's so called negative influence. The late Big L, a Harlem based rapper released the song "Devil's Son" in 1993 in which he claimed himself to be the only son of Satan, and gloats about his escapades of murder and wrongdoing. While the song was filled with obviously fictional claims of murderous acts committed by L, he did explain that the song connected with what he saw on a daily basis on the streets of Harlem. When asked what made him write the song he replied; "I've always been a fan of horror flicks. Plus the things I see in Harlem [are] very scary. So I just put it all together in a rhyme." (Daniel) In the same interview Big L crowns himself as the originator of the horrorcore subgenre, or at least, the first to release a horrorcore song as a single. However, his involvement in the forming of such a genre does not make him a constantly contributing member. While he did release the song, his objective was not to continuously spread a negative message; it was simply to communicate his enraged emotion as a youth based on the environment he'd grown up in.
   
   The song "Devil's Son" features two vocal samples from Nas, "When I was twelve I went to hell for snuffin' Jesus…" and, "I'm waving automatic guns at nuns…", which loop several times throughout the song. While it's appalling that the artist would say such a thing, it is interesting how far one would go in order to get a point across. When later interviewed in 2008 Nas refers back to his influence on artists, and most notably why he said the things he did: "…I was a different guy, I was coming in the game trying to shock you, to get your attention. Cuz' you had these fake rappers at the time, so to get your attention I had to say something nobody was saying, and when I did that it kind of started something that was crazy… but I got something that's coming behind that but a lot of artists were inspired like Big L, rest in peace, who made an album and went all the way there, [he] did something called the 'Devil's Son' and it was just a little too far." Big L also made comments on how he wasn't in favor of producing material that gave off those messages, because in reality, that wasn't who he was, or what he was about. He was asked if he'd continue making songs like "Devil's Son" and replied: "No, I'm not really like that. I'd rather make people laugh than say something bugged out, or try to scare somebody 'cause that ain't me. I feel the best way to say something in rap is to stay true to yourself. A lot of what I say is kind of humorous, but it's also serious at the same time. And plus being funny comes natural to me." (Daniel) Both Nas and Big L have released tracks that give positive messages to inner city youth, most notably Big L's "Street Struck" and Nas's "I Can".
    
     The general idea here is to say that these artists do not do, or advocate what they speak about in their music. However, they do feel that the situation at hand requires them to step beyond the boundaries of what is known to be normal, and say things that will bring attention to them. By doing so, they can get out a greater message they have in store, and that alone, could be what hip-hop is defined as; the unwavering courage to step up and say what needs to be said, regardless of the consequences.
    
     With that said, Conscious hip-hop (note the change from use of the word "rap", to use of the genre's name itself) now takes its stand. Though only a mere subgenre, Conscious hip-hop is noted as being among the genre's most original forms as it honors and incorporates what a founding father of Hip-Hop, Afrika Bambaataa, notes as the four elements of Hip-Hop, B-boying, MCing, DJing, and Graffiti. The intended purpose of Conscious Hip-Hop is to spread an exact opposite message of that which is spread by Horrorcore, and the predominant Gangsta genres; violence, pride in material worth, and misogyny. In Conscious Hip-Hop, you'll find majorly positive messages, and through these messages "conscious rappers" empower those who listen closely to the lyrics in their music. Now while positives are what you majorly find in conscious hip-hop, this statement is not meant to convey the idea that negatives play an important part in the message the music presents. The negatives of Conscious Hip-Hop spawn strictly from either self experiences of rappers themselves, and are used as examples on what NOT to do when growing up impoverished, or are parodies of the now normal Gangsta activities in the genre's mainstream culture. What is interesting to note most about the subgenre is that the majority of it's contributing members are considered "underground" artists; and while few of them, most notably Common, get radio play, the message you hear in the songs played on the radio is not nearly as inspiring as the message you hear in their radio-rejected songs. Again, this is the media's defacing of the art form known as Hip-Hop. Mos Def, one of the most famous rappers known to participate heavily in the Conscious Hip-Hop subgenre, once shared his perspective on the term "Conscious Hip-Hop" and being himself dubbed a "Conscious Rapper", he stated:

"They've got their little categories, like 'conscious' and 'gangsta'. It used to be a thing where hip-hop was all-together. Fresh Prince would be on tour with N.W.A. It wasn't like, 'You have got to like me in order for me to like you.' That's just some more white folks trying to think that all niggas are alike, and now it's expanded. It used to be one type of nigga; now it's two. There is so much more dimension to who we are. A monolith is a monolith, even if there's two monoliths to choose from. I ain't mad at Snoop. I'm not mad at Master P. I ain't mad at the Hot Boys. I'm mad when that's all I see. I would be mad if I looked up and all I saw on TV was me or Common or The Roots, because I know that ain't the whole deal. The real joy is when you can kick it with everyone. That's what hip-hop is all about. … They keep trying to slip the 'conscious rapper' thing on me. I come from Roosevelt Projects, man. The ghetto. I drank the same sugar water, ate hard candy. And they try to get me because I'm supposed to be more articulate, I'm supposed to be not like the other Negroes, to get me to say something against my brothers. I'm not going out like that, man." (Stewart)

In essence, what Mos Def is attempting to say, is that while consciousness is an important part of Hip-Hop itself, it is not the entirety of the art. Rappers can express their emotions in many different ways, and what is truly a gift is that these artists can communicate from different points of view. However what Def is not in favor of, is when only one viewpoint is focused on, as it corrupts the image of what Hip-Hop is truly about, expression.
      The positive side of Hip-Hop is evident in the artists, be they of the Gangsta tribune or the Conscious one, on several occasions have artists shown themselves to advocate a positive message despite their negative lyrics. In July of 2001 Charles Fisher formed an organization called the Hip-Hop Summit Youth Council. The goal of this organization is to use the medium of Hip-Hop music to spread knowledge, awareness, and love throughout public schools and communities nationwide about a variety of issues and positives that affect our youth. Currently, the organization has established groups in schools and communities in over 60 cities, and now teaches 7.5 million public school kids about evading drugs, guns, HIV/AIDS, and a list of other things.  From everyday men and women, to celebrities, professional athletes, and even politicians, a multitude of individuals have joined the Hip-Hop Summit Youth Council in their journey to enhance the communities, and develop the youth of America into being better citizens (About the HHSYC).
    
  The Council has seen hundreds of rap artists and record producers in Hip-Hop giving support to it's cause and among these contributors are Nas, Young Joc, Cam'ron, Joe Budden, Foxy Brown, and Jim Jones, just to name a few; and mind you those few are all known primarily for their Gangsta lyrics. Artists like Common, Ciara, Cassidy, LL Cool J, T-Pain, Mya, Big Daddy Kane, ?uestlove, Ludacris, and Doug E. Fresh have also contributed to the cause, and appeared at Hip-Hop Summit events. In October of 2005, the Organizing Committee of the Millions More Movement deemed the Hip-Hop Summit Youth Council the "Model Program for the Country" (About The HHSYC). In addition to The Hip-Hop Summit and it's branch organizations, One Nation Hip-Hop, OaklandLeaf, YouthUprising, R.A.P. Academy, and The Hip-Hop Congress, exist and are all similar in their attempt to use Hip-Hop to empower and educate the youth of America, and the world.

      So what's being said here? Our conclusion would arrive at the doorstep of this statement: Hip-Hop is an art, a musical genre, a fashion, an attitude, a mentality. This culture is neither all good nor all bad, but the contributors to the culture are who tip the scale in either direction, as well as the media who broadcasts the voice of these good or bad artists into our ears. Artists aren't always in favor of the media's corruption, or of what they must do in order to present their message; and if their "on stage" persona gives the message that it is okay to violently attack society and mistreat women, they at least preach against such a message when their voice isn't being constricted. It is as touchy as a subject as what kills a man, the gun, or the man pulling the trigger to fire it. The answer is in fact clear in all instances, the man kills the other man when he pulls the trigger; the gun never fires itself. Hip-Hop is just a medium on which a message can be sent to those who are listening. What vibe the message contains, is within the control of the rapper, or unfortunately in our case, in control of the media.
A personal view analysis on Hip-Hop from my own eyes. I'm not an english student or trying to be one at all, but I have tried my best to weed out any grammar problems and keep everything readable.

I started this about 3 years ago and have been expanding on it as things change, and my views differ. Any comments are welcome, and if you feel I am wrong about anything, and have reasonable examples to prove your point, I encourage you to post in the comments below and open up some minds!

Thank you for reading!

(I have a works cited page for the examples I've used as well however I'm not going to upload it as a part of this, as all of the examples and quotations used have been marked or referenced to within the writing.)
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Daily Deviation

Given 2013-09-05
Hip Hop as a culture is largely and consistently misunderstood, and ~S3NTRYdesigns provides an excellent starting point for exploring and understanding the origins of the culture in his article, Hip Hop Thesis [Ongoing Study] ( Featured by Nichrysalis )
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S3NTRYdesigns Featured By Owner Dec 14, 2013  Student Digital Artist
My my, I had no idea this sparked so much controversy much less made it to be a DD! For those who read and got something from the piece, Thank You, and I hope you will continue to view my work in the future.

I would like to clear a few things up though, as they aseem to be bugging parts of the community.

This was written when I was in the 12th grade, in 2009-2010, and later continued in my first year of College. The premise of the essay was essentially SUPPOSED to be biased, which is why i I tend to share a great deal of personal opinions throughout.

Also, while perhaps not iterated well enough within the thesis, Hip-Hop is a collection of ideas and emotions that form a culture. When I speak of Hip-Hop, I use many musical achieve,ents or musical references to demonstrate my position within the paper, however Hip-Hop's culture is far more vast than just the musical aspect can demonstrate. To explicitly demonstrate each portion of the culture's contribution to society on a whole would take far more time than I was given in a college semester of School year. Hip Hop consists of elements, defining properties that make specific things able to be categorized as Hip-Hop, any person who does at least one of these things, or has one of them IS Hip Hop. Graffiti, Breakin, Emceein, Djayin, and Knowledge, are the basic elements. Graffiti art in itself dates back tens of thousands of years. Emceein, a type of verbal commanding used to demonstrate one's power over their listeners has been a technique used by Kings and Queens, and even poor folk who seek to rise up against their leaders, to verbally persuade listeners also for tens of thousands of years.

Though my position on Hip-Hop was, in many ways a fault on my part, portrayed as a music form generally here within the paper, I would hope that many who may have seen some errors within the reading re-read the thesis with the understanding that Hip-Hop, is not just a musical form, but an entire artistic culture, and way of life to many of individuals.
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:iconocarinaplaya:
Ocarinaplaya Featured By Owner Sep 22, 2013
tl;dr

Making a mountain out of a molehill when describing the accomplishments of hip hop.
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:iconaway-with-knives:
aWay-with-knives Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013  Student General Artist

I've gotta tell you, I'm a total head and I've been meaning to read this since I first saw it a couple ays ago; I have it bookmarked, I've just been busy

 

 

 

 

have you ever read Dan Charnas' <>the big payback<>?

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:iconcourglas:
courglas Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013
This statement: "Hip-Hop has given more support to the inner city youth of America than any other form of music or entertainment in the past 50 years or more." -is the biggest problem I have with your "study" because you focus on this premise and do not support it. The earliest concrete date you have is 1982. What the hell happened the the previous 30 or 20 years? This was published 2012, which means 50 years ago leads us to 1962. the burden of proof is on you.

Also, I did not see hip hop involved in the Vietnam war the way I saw numerous rock groups involved, including but not limited to Jefferson Airplane, Mystery Trend, Jimi Hendrix, Bob Dylan, The Beatles, more notably John Lennon and most of the bands involved in woodstock. This little bit covers youth and the involvement of musicians during critical events from 1960-1970. Hip-Hop didn't even arrive til about mid 1970's and has been around for about 30-35 years. It's even worse when you have a a quote from black person using the derogatory term "nigga." I've heard every explanation of the differen between "Nigga" and "nigger" and "nigglet" and I don't even know what else, but even my American Ethnics Professor who is black, and Latino, would kick you out of the room(regardless of your color) for ignorance, self depreciation, and the idiocracy of the concept of trying to own such a derogatory term as "Nigger."

personally I like hip-hop, but only if we are talking about somewhere between 1st, and 2nd gen hip-hop. I know that a lot of people identify with rap, hip hop, rock, R&B, but of these, Rock is the most prominently associated with youth to anyone, anywhere. The majority of people listen to rock within the US, and outside the US. Obviously, some places a lot more than others.

The most recent information I have on this is as shows below according to The RIAA (The Recording Industry Association of America.

The top genres in 2007 by percentage of sales:
1) Rock 34%
2) R&B/Urban 11.8%
3) Country 11.5%
4) Rap/Hip-Hop 10.8%
5) Pop 10.7%
6) Religious 3.9%
7) Classical 2.3%
8) Jazz 2.6%

Notice even that rap and hip-hop combined make about 11% along with R&B combined with Urban making about 12%. I can tell you right now I love classical and Jazz way before I even like hip hop, and Rock may be my favorite genre, but when writing an objective paper, you really have to make it a point to look at it from outside your own personal bias. The better you do this, the better the paper. If I can pull all these sources in under an hour, you could have sat down and done a lot more research yourself. I can tell you right now, most groups that take a political stand without getting politically involved are simply hypocrites. I know tons of groups that are making a difference that most people don't even know they are doing.

Bono alone(from "U2") is widely known for his activism concerning Africa, for which he co-founded DATA, EDUN, the ONE Campaign and Product Red. Frank Zappa fought for Freedom of speech in music, and you can view interviews by numerous people challenging him on this. Zappa made a 2 disc concept album that was a satire on the subject (Joe's Garage Acts I, II & III 1979) . I could name 100's of rock bands with political music, that are not only involved with youth, but actually directly involved in prolitics or activism, but I really see not point in painting to the town red. If you want to make the argument about how "involved" Hip-Hop is with youth in America alone, you're really going to have to provide some astounding evidence, because simply using your preference to Hip-Hop and your experience with Hop-Hop as a basis, then finding very few sources to support it is not very convincing.

Even in the about of the HHSYC "The Hip-Hop Summit Youth Council (“HHSYC”) was founded by its Chairman Charles Fisher in July of 2001. The organization was created to help implement the commitments, guidelines and policies made by record companies, artists, community leaders and elected officials at the June 12-13, 2001 Hip-Hop Summit at the Hilton Hotel in New York." this sounds like more of a financial and legal concern.

Even as far as youth go this wasn't really established until 2002, which makes it apparent for only the last 10-12 years. It's clear to me you left out things that would clearly hurt your argument, but if this the best arguement you have to offer for your thesis, I would reconsider my thesis.
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:iconnichrysalis:
Nichrysalis Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
"Hip-Hop has given more support to the inner city youth of America than any other form of music or entertainment in the past 50 years or more."

I understand that this is an overstatement and that hip hop as the culture we know it as has only been around since the late 1970's, but discrediting this one oversight does not fault the entire essay or his actual thesis, which discusses the origins of the negative influences of hip hop and why they are so dominantly apparent to people outside of the culture looking in as opposed to the more conscious and positive messages that the medium broadcasts that are less obvious to those unfamiliar with hip hop.

You can't paint the town red if you're using blue chalk.
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:iconcourglas:
courglas Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013
That's why I used green chalk.
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:iconocarinaplaya:
Ocarinaplaya Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013
A common comparison I like to use when comparing rap and rock is that rock is like wine with plenty of songs able to stand the test of time. Whereas rap is like milk, the songs don't last long before fading into the memory of the general public. I've been forced to listen to rap at work for 4 years and I can't really remember any songs beyond 2 years ago. They kinda blend together.
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:iconcourglas:
courglas Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013
I like some rappers, albeit not many, and some Hip Hop, but a lot of what I do like, was earlier compilations. Because rock has been influenced by so many styles and as a style isn't at all close minded, it tends to take from any and everywhere. I feel the advantage rock may have over other styles is that it's like the free verse of poetry. While classical and jazz are bound by rules, or in the case of jazz, knowingly breaking them, I think rock has the ability to say, "That's right, I opened with a classical style entrance, transition to "rock" had a jazz break/bridge, and ended acoustically" and that's the song.
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:iconnichrysalis:
Nichrysalis Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Because rock has had more time to establish itself in the eyes of the public is not a solid foundation for your position. One thing that stood out to me immediately from your argument was your list of top genres.

Your list of top genre sales is heavily influenced by a preexisting demographic base for the rock genre, both age-wise and through passed-on mentalities. Further complicating things are a reluctant youth population that doesn't pay for their music.

I would debate more at the moment, and welcome discussing things further anytime so as to broaden my own understanding, but deviantART on mobile can be aggravating at times. :tantrum:
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:iconcourglas:
courglas Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013
I think the problem with that statement is that from your position, you seem to think that my position is that "rock has been around longer." No, that is not my position. My position is to make a few common knowledge points, and then a few non common knowledge points, not to write a counter essay. Yes I am talking about rock in terms of the comparison that rock is more involved with youth than Hip Hop. Just the fact that there are so many more rock musicians, it only makes sense that there happen to be in this genre, so many more musicians that are involved in politics, and types of activist-ism.

As for the sales list, yes, you need to get off your mobile and get back to me when you have a more adequate ability to write available to you because as it is you can't even claim what you said about the sales list as anything other than your opinion. You can't even discredit "my" list(which it isn't, it's the RIAA"s list) saying it is based on a preexisting demographic (since all genre's following's had a preexisting base from an older type of music) and use that as formidable argument. Numbers are numbers, I won't dispute that. I mean, I guess if you want to challenge it, then you'd either have to provide a more up to date list. :shrug: Or you could challenge the legitimacy of my source I guess.

Lastly, I mentioned people that are pretty well known. Bob Dylan (who is considered folk) and many other musical artists contributed to events that occurred from 1960's to the 70's and non of which were rock groups or rock musicians. As it is, I simply opted to challenge the statement that Hip Hop has given more support than any other form of music or form of entertainment IN THE LAST 50 YEARS, because frankly, it isn't accurate, true, and an overstatement, that reflects the biased of the writer which calls into question to substance of the rest of his essay.
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:iconnichrysalis:
Nichrysalis Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
A source doesn't validate someone's claims, it strengthens or weakens the depth of someone's argument depending on the credibility of the source.

I understood what your position was and stated that a lot of the evidence you provided is subject to having already been established and therefore your examples had a lot of time to develop to what they are today before hip hop was introduced. I found this easily made your entire argument very flimsy.
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:iconcourglas:
courglas Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013
I also never mentioned anything about validation. I said you couldn't discredit "my list". Are you still on your phone? Boy, you best get to a computer!
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:iconbfetish:
Bfetish Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013  Professional Traditional Artist
Wow..he called me "Boy".That term in and of itself will get your assed kicked if you said that to an older black person on the street. There are only a handful of words that will instantly get you negative reaction from black people in general. And "Boy" is one of them.
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:iconcourglas:
courglas Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013
You are clearly the most racist person I have ever met in my life, that misfoundedly believes in racism, making it a real thing, simply because you are creating that segregation yourself in the form of reverse racism.
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:iconbfetish:
Bfetish Featured By Owner Sep 8, 2013  Professional Traditional Artist
LOL.I see you've got jokes.Like I said I just find it funny how white people try to call someone racist when any black person calls them on their ignorant bullshit.
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(1 Reply)
:iconcourglas:
courglas Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013
This was 2007. Hip hop started mid 1970's. That's at least 30-35 years. How much more time does Hip Hop need to develop? Flimsy, hahahahahahahaha.
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:iconbfetish:
Bfetish Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013  Professional Traditional Artist
Your argument is pretty flimsy. The term Hip-Hop as a form of music and culture was created in the 70's.
But Speaking in rhyme while telling a story with music has been in our culture   in all forms of African american music for over a hundred years. 

It just took a real long time for us to give it a name and to make it entertaining enough to the point non black people liked and cared about it.
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:iconcourglas:
courglas Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013
I love two things black people are largely responsible for, and that's R&B and jazz. Black people shared their music within their community and entertaining other people other than their own wasn't an issue. Further rapping has been in poetry readings forever and dates further back than any one man or group of people.

Hip Hip was good early on, and if you read any of my other posts you'd already know I mentioned this quite a few times. I like Hip Hop, but not the later stuff. I'll talk all day long how awesome some black musicians are, among other musicians in rock, jazz, and R&B, but Hip Hop less than tingles my intellectual understanding of music notation, and musical form. Hip Hop to me is fun, and less serious, and there is nothing wrong with that. Jazz is extremely technical, and if you don't understand it, it's weird and off as hell. I understand  people don't like a style of music or don't care what in contributed to the world as long as people respect what it contributed. That goes for any and all Genre. What I don't like, is when people exaggerate to what extent genres contributed to the world, and even try to claim one is better than the other.

I like rock more than Hip Hop, but that has nothing to do with my argument. Even calling my argument flimsy doesn't make it flimsy, that's your opinion, and how you perceive something doesn't make it true. That's why the information I provided, was simple and short cut. I've spent more time replying to people than time spent on gathering a few sources, and even used one of the authors sources against him, and still I have yet to see the author respond to anything himself.

Nobody seems to address the issue I brought up about the phrase Nigga, or my information on politically involved artists, or information I pulled from the authors source the HHYSC. That's about 80% of my response, with The RIAA (The Recording Industry Association of America.) being maybe 15% and the only thing anyone has attacked without discrediting or provided a better source.
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:iconbfetish:
Bfetish Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013  Professional Traditional Artist
"I like rock more than Hip Hop, but that has nothing to do with my argument. Even calling my argument flimsy doesn't make it flimsy, that's your opinion, and how you perceive something doesn't make it true. That's why the information I provided, was simple and short cut. I've spent more time replying to people than time spent on gathering a few sources, and even used e of the authors sources against him, and still I have yet to see the author respond to anything himself. "

You didn't provide good information.And the information you provided is the same bullshit I have heard before hundreds of times. If you really wanted to know  the history and origins of Hip-Hop you could do the studying and research on your own.But since you clearly have bias against it or some forms of it your ignorance comes through whenever you post on the subject. Before you post or say anything(especially on the internet) get your facts straight.


"Nobody seems to address the issue I brought up about the phrase Nigga, or my information on politically involved artists, or information I pulled from the authors source the HHYSC. That's about 80% of my response, with The RIAA (The Recording Industry Association of America.) being maybe 15% and the only thing anyone has attacked without discrediting or provided a better source."

The point of the guys paper was a basic informative piece on Hip-Hop. The stuff you listed really has nothing to do what the guy is saying.Your authors sources are flawed because they are told from only one source that is not directly involved with Hip-Hop or the culture behind it as a whole.The RIAA has nothing to do about the history of Hip-Hop as a genre of music.So your points are moot.They have no real say on the history of Hip-Hop,the roots of Hip-Hop as music, and its culture.

The phrase "nigga"is never something educated people(especially white educated people or just most white people in general who didn't grow up in the hood around many black people) will understand it. I don't use the term unless someone is being ignorant.But you would really have to piss me off personally in order for me to apply that word to anyone. Its also just slang that people use on the street when refering to another. I've seen every one use in my hood. Asians,mexicans, and some white people who are fully accepted have used the term in referring to one another. Other cultures who live in the hood also refer to each other with their own ethjnic slurs. Yet black people seem to singled out for using the word "nigga" when referring to each other.

 
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(1 Reply)
:icondagoth-jeff:
dagoth-jeff Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013  Hobbyist Writer

Your argument is "pretty flimsy."

Speaking in rhyme and telling a story to music is a pretty ancient concept, actually (longer than a hundred years) it's not just limited to the century-old genre of the "Non-African U.S. Citizens Who Claim A Vague Point Of Foreign Origin While Whitey Has None" culture.

 

"It just took a real long time for us to give it a name and to make it entertaining enough to the point non black people liked and cared about it."

Do you have any idea how ignorant this sounds? If the roots are truly that of folklorish styles of singing, how the hell is that fanbase only limited to blacks? No one else could like or care about it?

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:iconcourglas:
courglas Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013
Thanks man, after taking a step back and reading the posts collectively, I've started to notice how repetitively ignorant this person continues to sound and make their arguments. I think I'm done replying, more or less, but it is clear to me that this person is not only playing the victim card, but from what I can tell, he is also racist. I never thought I would see such a racist black person in my life.
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(1 Reply)
:iconbfetish:
Bfetish Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013  Professional Traditional Artist
If you actually read read my previous posts I have stated that is much older than a hundred years.I have even posted links to back up my claims.

"Do you have any idea how ignorant this sounds? If the roots are truly that of folklorish styles of singing, how the hell is that fanbase only limited to blacks? No one else could like or care about it?"

Here's a question? Why are still here? Your not offering anything of value to the discussion. Black people created Hip-Hop.Its roots are linked to Africa. And that's the points I'm sticking to in my discussion .

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(2 Replies)
:icondagoth-jeff:
dagoth-jeff Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
It's pretty biased, I can't agree with evertything in here; much of it is a lumped generalization written solely from your pro-perspective. Old school rap started out nicely, the lyrics weren't about killing, it promoted rap battles and breakin' competitions, had catchy beats--and inspired an alliance to spread the word against gang violence, a voice to the gang members, that they might change their ways.
Once the West ran with it, it did a 180 and you weren't cool if you didn't preach a gang attitude. There was some talent there still, I can't deny that, but what it evolved into, the hiphop/R&B thing, slower-type jams and what they call "rap" today, I just don't see the talent, myself. It's pretty rare. But I'm getting off my point, if I had one...
Yes, of course hip hop has a fairly negative image, a good portion of it has become rooted in violent street culture and womanizing gangsters who don't give two damns about the youth they preach to. Run D.M.C. talked about inspiration and staying in school--where the hell's that these days? Public Enemy is just one tiny example, as much as I love them, of hate-filled black supremacist militants. There isn't really anything a youngster can gain from that, but I digress. I'm not here to point out the racist rappers. Where the hell was I...
A lot of music variations have an "image" that isn't always pleasant. Country=inbred shitkicking cowboys. Metal=long-haired druggy scumbags. And so on. But that doesn't always make it so, it's just an "up in the air" stereotype. Whatever.

Nicely-written, though.
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:iconchromeantennae:
chromeantennae Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Excellent piece. One of the few DDs I've absolutely loved, you deserved this, man. :iconclapplz: So much truth to this and if people take the time out to read it, may understand that hip hop is so much more than what the mainstream media portrays it to be. :salute:
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:iconkarinta:
Karinta Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013  Student General Artist
Wow... I think you could potentially turn this into something big.
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:iconocarinaplaya:
Ocarinaplaya Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013
"the unwavering courage to step up and say what needs to be said, regardless of the consequences"
- All fine and good so long as they are willing to accept the consequences should they arise. Which, as pointed out in this thesis, they aren't.

This thesis is definitely in support of hip hop as a genre (or "art form" as you state it) which, naturally, makes it biased. It's really not hard to imagine that hip hop artists who use negative lyrics in their songs to point out the bad in the world that should change would be seen as just plain negative. I can't stand hip hop (I have two reasons for it, only one matters though). It may have been a big thing in the "golden age of hip hop" but to be honest, the genre should've gone the way of disco. It should have died more than a decade ago as it hasn't evolved in any meaningful way since it became mainstream. As your thesis points out, it just kind of broke apart into it's own similar-sounding sub-genres.

A reason I don't like hip hop is due to it's very simple structure. A song could be made in an hour if one tried. Start to finish. Another reason is the culture behind it. It may be separate from Gangsta rap, but since it's so similar in style and lyrics, it often gets lumped together with Gangsta rap which gives it a negative image. Knocking a bit on the artists, but if you want to rap about something but don't advocate it, simply don't rap about it. Or at the very least re-articulate it so it doesn't seem like you want your fans to go out and sell drugs and beat on women. I live in an area with a high population of black people and hip hop does not help their public image. I see someone driving down the street with their windows down and hip hop blaring from the speakers (which is pretty rude, btw), I don't think "gee, that guy is a real rebel standing up for his people", I tend to think "Oh shit! He's going to gun me down!" I'm not mixing up with Gangsta rap in that instance since I've had the thought run through my mind when I heard Kanye Wests plagiaristic song "stronger" creeping up on me. (Though that song wasn't plagiarism per se since he bought the sound clip from Daft Punk, but it sure as hell wasn't original)

Personally, when people mention the "fun and party" aspect of the genre, the impression I get is that it's just wild hedonism.

An example of what goes into today's mainstream hip hop song:
Pick a simple 4/4 beat. Make it fast or slow. Create a simple melody 2 measures long or less and loop it indefinitely. Create a plodding harmony to accompany the monotonous melody to try to give it depth. Create some lyrics that every rapper has already done to death or something political without doing research. For bonus points: add an annoying sound effect to the song so people can't tune it out.
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:icondoomroar76:
doomroar76 Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013
Greetings, yes i agree is true that most rappers could do with some responsibility for what they have said, assuming the vulnerability of the public to not reflect over what they listen to, but this is a capitalist era, screw the next guy, this is not a social based society, let alone a social centered industry, thus as long as we talk inside the mainstream root of Hip-Hop this is not going to change, the fact that there is a thing like mainstream "conscious Hip-Hop" is a rarity in itself, and since your critic is based upon mainstream Hip-Hop, i shall conclude this is as far as your point against this theme will go, and the same can be applied to all other mainstream music, from rock, pop, metal and what have you.

Your second paragraph not only clearly shows that you just blatantly ignored Mos Def words, but that you are also highly unfamiliar with the genre itself, but that can be fixed easily just by searching the various artist cited in this work. Hip-Hop is dead? yes that is no news to anyone, and is only true for the mainstream part, which is what is being referenced here, and as it was pointed in this thesis, this part of the culture which hardly involves any of the other 3 pillars and revolves around rapping, is controlled by the media, which as i already said at the very beginning of this comment, is a capital centered industry, and as long as it makes a profit it will refuse to change, this is not only true for music, but to all other media, which will remain the same until it sees the need to morph into higher profit, until then it will maintain its current model.

The first point of why you don't like Hip-Hop can perfectly be dismissed, indeed i believe you yourself said so, and indeed it shows a real small amount of research (just to not say knowledge), if not, for no research at all. Your second point when you lump the ghetto life and mostly gangsta rap to the entirety of Hip-Hop and the urban life is... really... it couldn't be more biased than your first point, and it couldn't be more short sighted than just plain profiling, generalizing, and the worst argument possible to make, ignorance, as an example it would be as if i would start categorizing you as a pedophile, zoophilic, homosexual fanatic, just because it happens that your current avatar involves a pony... i'm not going to even take a look at the rest of your profile, i will impart my opinion and pass it as a fact, acting solely upon that tiny avatar of yours, accompanied with a general idea that may be wrong of what being a brony could imply, and that of course would be not only morally wrong, but it would be a logic and rational abomination that lacks of any justification to back the statement being made, indeed to make statements that fall victim of such things is nothing but an insult to a work of investigative nature like this thesis, but your mistake (which is part of a group of little mistakes that come together, to then burst into what i just pointed out) sadly shares an error with this work itself, since this thesis is victim of its own little bias, universalism, and local approach (which doesn't means that it should not explore its local origins, but it does require for it to replicate the actual grasp it now has, which is a multicultural one inside a global scheme, that of course implies more than just gangsta rap, conscious rap, or the tinny part that is mainstream, which is still important since is the most distributed part, but as an entirety is still fairly small), and this, Hip-Hop that is, goes indeed way beyond music, luckily for the author, this work is an ongoing study, so he has the time to add and polish his work, and the same goes for you, you can start now  to know that Hip-Hop is way, waaaaaaaaaay more than radio rap and recycled remixes, as a matter of fact is saddening that you dare to use those words to make a description of the genre.

Lastly quoting your other comment:
"Radio hip hop seems to promote hedonism, but nerdcore (I guess that's a term now) seems to be more positive as far as lyrics go. Rapping about general problems rather than just urban problems"

Oh you mean conscious Hip-Hop? the term that is plastered all over this thesis and goes without saying is clearly way beyond just Nerdcore which is a fairly new sub genre of the monolith that is Hip-Hop? sure it is a more friendly medium, and this brings me up to this, Gangsta rap can be conscious Hip-Hop too, in this form the gangsta part of it takes the place of an attitude or "stand" and the conscious part the thematic to be addressed, which is the case just to name a few of Ice Cube, Public Enemy and early KRS-One with the Boogie Down Productions crew. mmh, thinking more about it this 2 pages long work hardly seem like something that has been worked for lets say 2 months, let alone 3 years, it lets so many things outside of it that it allows for people to still use bias to explain and critic concepts, that or you mister Ocarina didn't took the time to search for the works cited page... i want to believe this is the case here, so please don't reply back unless your comment manages to go beyond personal experience, which as we know is regarded as irrelevant ever since before the days of the existence of something like natural philosophy.
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:iconocarinaplaya:
Ocarinaplaya Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013
Mind listing some songs and artists for me to look over? Perhaps there is something I'm missing. Preferably with lyrics.
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:icondoomroar76:
doomroar76 Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013
2pac : Pain - Keep Ya Head Up - Brenda's Got a Baby - Changes - Black cotton - Life Goes On - Don't trust me - (2pac is the perfect example along with biggie smalls of 2 things here, what some call a positive message of hope while reflecting the crudeness of the "street" life, and at the same time the fine line cross between violent rebellion and a gangster life of extravaganza, with that said even if he died prematurely he managed to said what was intended, to resume even if life is hard and to survive in an unfair world it is going to be necessary to do some things that step outside of the boundaries of what is acceptable by society, which is a model constructed not by his people, the listener is invited to not lost hope and stick to a better path, not only that but that is possible to escape the life of poverty, which doesn't mean this will stop the prejudice, lamentably he dies before he was able to polish more of his stuff for example, i highly doubt if he was able to accomplish what he promised in his song "never call U B again" which is of course a song about stopping using derogatory therms toward women, a thing that along with the term nigga is quite spread in the ghetto life, i believe he was unable to make it)

Afrika Bambaataa and the The Zulu Nation: this will take forever, and to tell you the truth i myself haven't even finished half, but it would be almost a crime not to mention this.

Beastie Boys: most of their things, that said their conscious ones are more scarce, as they are  more of the "party" part of the spectrum. 

Blackalicious: Paragraph President - Brain Washers - Chemical Calisthenics - Supreme People - The fall and Rise of Elliot Brown - Black diamons an Pearls - (most of their things)


BlackStar: Astronomy - KOS - Respiration - Definition - Redifinition - (most of their things)

Boogie Down Productions: possible the first conscious Hip-Hop group with a gangster like stand, they do a hard switch to nonviolence after one of their members is shot, after which they take a hard nonviolence approach, that continues up to our days, most importantly with blast master KRS-One. (and i can't really make a small list pin pointing songs but just consume the whole thing is all good)

Common: Known as Common Sense, is sometimes as obnoxious as if your mom was rapping what i may call a feminist, but i guess that is the whole point, but damn can he be corny...

Coolio: if you really feel lazy to search for all this his  "Gangsta's Paradise" is a good resume to most themes worked by plenty of artist.

Cypress Hill: Long life supporters of the legal use of marijuana, now recent studies show that extended use is prejudicial for health, while at the same time recent studies show that is not, my personal opinion here if i dare have a say, is to not consume any until we get to a scientific consensus of what is the real deal with smoking this plant, with that said other forms of consumption seem to be fine but good luck getting natural marijuana to make tea out of it hahaha.

De La Soul: Freedom of Speak - The magic number - Me Myself and I - Held Down - I am I be - Maybe among with common the most friendly guys in this little list... nevertheless that doesn't mean they are delusional, is just their earlier songs have some happy undertones.

Dead Prez: Hell Yeah - Wolves - I am African - Hip-Hop - we want freedom - Discipline - animal in man -  (all their albums, even if i didn't practically liked the last one which them makes it a nonsense to recommend it, but i guess is more of a musical taste rather than a lyrical one) They can be considered the actual version of the conscious gangsta rapper, with that said they are fairly young and as the age their visions will mature, but they get the point of what they should do, now i have to clarify because is not rare to see misinterpretation by people while listening to them, but no they do not advocate robbery, as a matter of fact no guy in this lists advocates it, and i find it convenient to clarify here that drug trafficking is mostly use as a metaphor to exemplify struggle, with that said, i wonder if is the artist fault or the listener to get or not this? any way Dead Prez doesn't use this analogy but other artist from the 90's like 2Pac or Notorious B.I.G. do quite a few times.

Dungeon Family: this implies what is the combination of the groups Outkast, Goodie Mob (which more famous member is Cee-Lo yes from Gnarls Barkley... but each member is quite talented), Parental Advisory (they are great but quite unknown sadly), Witchdoctor, Cool Breeze, Sleepy Brown, Killer Mike. (I have to admit i may be getting incredible biased here because these are one of my favorite groups...) But you can get an accurate feel just listening to their only album Even in Darkness, some songs now: Cooked Booty - Follow The light - Rollin - Excalibur - Presenting Dungeon Family - What iz Rap - On & On & On - (the whole album really, with it the worst song being Trans DF Express which is ironically the single of this album... damn you capitalism!!!)

Eric B. & Rakim: Microphone Fiend - My melody - Known the Ledge - Let the rhytm hit'em - (my bigger problem here is their religious undertones that appear from time to time, which luckily change from christian to something more historically representative of black heredity like the nation of Islam, nevertheless to use the medium to spread a religion... i guess it can have that use too, anyway is not like every song is like that, and these guys are quite relevant in the evolution of the musical part of Hip-Hop so i will forgive them, and i guess religion has its good things... in the core of it all...)

Guru: Knowledge - For ya mind - Loungin - Lift Your Fist - State of Clarity - (Just to not call him the creator of Jazz- Hip-Hop i will say it how it is: one of the greater forces behind this genre.) (most of his things)

Ice Cube: Turn Off The Radio - Wicked - Gangsta Rap Made Me Do It - Hood Mentality - Fuck Dying Feat. Korn -  He is quite upfront outside his most known persona, that is, the wrong idea of a former gangster that becomes a movie star... and i have to say he is quite at fault of why the mainstream is like it is, since the success of the N.W.A. opened the doors to plenty garbage out there, N.W.A. is DR. Dre (yes that producer behind Eminem and the guy that is selling those head phones so popular nowadays...) Eazy E and Ice Cube.

Immortal Technique: Death March - Rich Mans World (1%) - Golpe De Estado  (hahaha because learning a second language never hurt anyone, but fine i will put another one to make up for this XD) - Open Your Eyes - The Poverty of Philosophy - No Mercy - Peruvian Cocaine - (this is the hardcore part of this list, RATM sounds inoffensive if we compare them.)

Jurassic5: Gotta understand - Get it together - Canto de ossanha (instrumental but i remember you believe Hip - Hop is about plain mix tapes?) - improvise - I Am Somebody - (really like most things on this list just consume all of their things they are just great, and am i not being biased in this they are great)

KRS-One (Knowledge Reigns Supreme Over Nearly Everybody): man this guy has so many stuff a life's work, i believe you can make a thesis on his life, and graduate from cultural historian, ok here i go. 

The Way It's Goin' Down -  I Got You - The Real Hiphop (Feat. Nas) - A Friend - Over Ya Head - R.E.A.L.I.T.Y. - I Can't Wake Up - All Right -

What a sloppy job here but i hope this manages something.

Nas: Revolutionary Warfare - Hip Hop Is Dead - Who Killed It? - i know i can -  Ghetto Prisoners - Life Is What You Make It - One mic - Ya’ll My Niggas - Hope -
 
Poor Righteous Teachers: Holy Intellect -  Allies - Conscious Style - Black Business - (most of their things)

Public enemy: How To Kill A Radio Consultant - Is Your God A Dog - Icebreaker - Questions -  How You Sell Soul To A Soulless People Who Sold Their Soul? - Sex, Drugs & Violence - Bring the Noise - Most of My Heroes Still...  - Power to the People - Who Stole the Soul - Fear of a Black Planet - (All of their things!)

The Roots: Good Music - It's Comin' - False Media - Don't Feel Right - The Fire - What They Do -  Rising Down (the whole album, because yeah i love that album my bad...) - (The roots here is my Favorite Band, and i say band because is a Hip-Hop band in the traditional sense of an instrumental band, which doesn't mean in no way that hey don't carry the Djeing part of Hip-Hop with them, but i want to clarify this, and they also carry beat boxing!!!!) (All of their things)

Wu-Tang Clan: One of my favorite groups, and this is a hard one because their most theme specific songs are in their individual works, so i guess this is to get a sense of ambiance of the wu-tang sound which constantly mix oriental kung fu movies flick sounds and lines, the most famous artist of this group would be the RZA.

 - A Better Tomorrow - Campfire - Wolves - Weak Point - Life Changes - Supreme Architecture -  Bring Da Ruckus - Shame on a Nigga - C.R.E.A.M. - One Of These Days - Legendary Weapons  - I Can't Go To Sleep - Reunited - 

Well to think that this incomplete, and small list looks this long, the worst of it is that this is really an small part of Hip-Hop, and i fear i may be ignoring plenty of variety but i think i did a decent job sticking to the idea of Hip-Hop as a monolith, and the biggest fault here is to not include most international artist, but i guess i have to limit it to English, because as i said before Hip-Hop is worldwide phenomenon, as an Example there is Nujabes, most of his stuff is instrumental but not all, and there are plenty if not most of them in English.

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:iconbfetish:
Bfetish Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013  Professional Traditional Artist
"A reason I don't like hip hop is due to it's very simple structure. A song could be made in an hour if one tried. Start to finish. Another reason is the culture behind it. It may be separate from Gangsta rap, but since it's so similar in style and lyrics, it often gets lumped together with Gangsta rap which gives it a negative image. Knocking a bit on the artists, but if you want to rap about something but don't advocate it, simply don't rap about it. Or at the very least re-articulate it so it doesn't seem like you want your fans to go out and sell drugs and beat on women. I live in an area with a high population of black people and hip hop does not help their public image. I see someone driving down the street with their windows down and hip hop blaring from the speakers (which is pretty rude, btw), I don't think "gee, that guy is a real rebel standing up for his people", I tend to think "Oh shit! He's going to gun me down!" I'm not mixing up with Gangsta rap in that instance since I've had the thought run through my mind when I heard Kanye Wests plagiaristic song "stronger" creeping up on me. (Though that song wasn't plagiarism per se since he bought the sound clip from Daft Punk, but it sure as hell wasn't original) "




This right here kills whatever argument you have made to state your case. Its loaded with stereotypes and ignorance. We (black people),at this point in American history could really careless of what people think of us at this point. I could go on and on a give you a history lesson on how slavery and years of systematic oppression can change or mold an ethnic group but that's a whole other discussion.

   As an ethnic group we make barely 20% of America's population but we have earned our place in this country by contributing greatly to many of this countries achievements throughout history. And for all the bullshit we have been through(and still go through) we are still here. No matter what you think of Hip-Hop music or the culture it is now global. Hip-Hop can be heard around the world. And its here to stay. Who are you to say what is good or valid music? You went to college to study music theory and things that focused on western civilization forms of music. Which is primarily music or music styles from Europe. Hip-Hop roots travel as far as Africa. When tribes would tell stories through song or dance. Hip-Hop has always been apart of african american culture we just now have a word for it.

 I studied a bit of music too and art in general and one thing I realized is that any basic forms of music and art outside of Europe is not taught much if not at all in most american institutes of higher learning.Unless you take a specialized class for it or take the time to look up information or history yourself. 

You don't have to like Hip-Hop but you should respect it. I find it funny that when non black people(especially white people) say almost the exact same reasons that they don't like Hip-Hop its all the same. And most of the time it stems from bad press from the media and just plain ignorance most of the time. But in the end I feel some white people just can't relate to it. So they have a prejudice against it. The good thing is that the many outweigh the few when it comes to people who like and support Hip-Hop music, as a culture, and an art form.
  
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:iconocarinaplaya:
Ocarinaplaya Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013
"Its loaded with stereotypes and ignorance. We (black people),at this point in American history could really care ess of what people think of us at this point."

I suppose they should care less since welfare is a career choice nowadays.
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:iconbfetish:
Bfetish Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013  Professional Traditional Artist
"I suppose they should care less since welfare is a career choice nowadays."

Ha! Your funny. Considering there are probably just almost as many whites on welfare as blacks.Don't believe me here is the proof.


So yeah we may have more but that number is going down.While the number of whites on welfare is rising. 
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:iconcourglas:
courglas Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013
You want to talk about slavery, pick up a history book kid, because BLACK PEOPLE, sold OTHER BLACK people into slavery. The US isn't even the worst offender, out of all the countries that bought slaves from Africa. Africa also wasn't the only country to sell salves. Asia sold slaves, hell, even Europe sold slaves, and African's were the third choice. You seem to think your group is the only one that went to bullshit. I dare you to even try to compare "your group" to what happened to the "indians" across what is now the United states, not to mention what happened to Mexicans, Asians, or what had always been going on with women since before Europeans arrived in the America's. In fact, if your ancestry has been in the US for a while, you're probably more genetically white than you think. Hip Hop happened on the streets of New york, and you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. "Hip hop as music and culture formed during the 1970s when block parties became increasingly popular in New York City"

Also, anyone who goes to a form of "higher institute' which by that I'm sure you mean colleges, is required to take music classes as part of their transfer curriculum. If you want to take me on, you're welcome to attempt retorting my original post, rather than this one I sent to you just now.
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:iconbfetish:
Bfetish Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013  Professional Traditional Artist
Kid?! I'm probably older than you.

So you want to go into it eh?Ok

*Black tribes in Africa sold other tribes man who were enemies. Which is pretty natural  by tribal standards. The Dutch and french had guns and also took over parts of Africa and regulated the slave trade. Either by bribing tribes or threatening them by gun point it was all regulated by Europeans.Africans didn't have a navy or large boats to ship slaves to america.

*After some research there were probably 2 or 3 african americans who owned slaves.But they were treated more as indentured servants and were treated better compared to white slave owners.

* And to stay on topic I'm talking about America's history of slavery.I could give a rats ass about how the rest of  the world treated its slaves. I am a by product of America's history of slavery.

* And I agree I am genetically part white.I'm part Irish,french, and Native American.But based on my skin color and the way I look I didn't get treated the same as many of my white friends. My people for years were enslaved,murdered,raped, and systematically oppressed for hundreds of years. African Americans are a whole different ethnic group all its own.

*We have been part white for probably the last 200 hundred years of being enslaved but that still didn't stop us from being treated as 1/3 of a human being.Hell, its written in this countries constitution.

*From what I gather you mention other forms of slavery but no other culture besides the Persians and the Egyptians before them have practiced systematic slavery and oppression of many ethnic groups the same way Europeans have on a global scale.

*Is it me or whenever the subject of slavery comes up some wannabe white intellectuals want to pull out the "hey black people sold slaves too!" argument. It still doesn't disguise the fact that this country was built on slavery and it was regulated by America's fore fathers. Or negates the impact it has had on African Americans as a culture and a people as a whole. Blacks in Africa didn't create or regulate the slave trade or put in place institutional racism in this country. Anyone that says otherwise really needs to take a thorough course on black history. 

*Outside of the slavery, the white washed version of the Civil Rights era that just talks about Rosa Parks,Dr King and Malcolm X, and a few movies. Public schools rarely teach a lot of the struggle and contributions african americans have been through and gave to this country.

* Yeah Native Americans got it probably the worst in terms of genocide. But then again many of them helped black slaves escape. And how did they do that? Well, the american government felt bad about almost wiping them out to the point that Native Americans were given reservations.Which is basically their own pieces of land on American soiled that is governed by whatever american indian tribe lives on it. Its basically their own country within the country.American laws have no jurisdiction on some if not most native american reservations.They govern themselves.

* After black slaves were freed my people were promised 40 acres and a mule to which many of us are still waiting for. Native Americans nearly got wiped out yet they get their own land within the country.My people get enslaved and treated like shit for hundreds of years yet we have earned the right to consider ourselves american people by fighting against systemic oppression. Native Americans were an obstacle and territorial enemy that impeded american settlers from journeying west.They were not enslaved as a people. So two different things.

*I know Hip-Hop as a name in the form of American culture originated in New York. But the musics roots of storytelling,combined with music, and dance has been traced back to Africa. Pick up a video of African tribes or better yet pick up an issue of National Geographic and you will see the similarities.

* I went to an art college. But during my time applying for and checking out schools taking a music course was not a requirement as far as the colleges in the state of California.

*I just took you own and you lost.


  I made my point.So please spare yourself from looking anymore ignorant by not bringing up race issues or black history with someone that is..

1.) Black or African American
2.) Been in numerous race and social debates over the past 20 or so years.

Sorry to go off topic and make things racial SENTRYdesigns. But once you got spotlighted as a daily deviation and your topic is own Hip-Hop its going to get its share of haters and trolls. They try to come off as intellectuals but their argument is all the same ignorant bullshit that I've been hearing and reading for the past 20 yrs. If they don't like it that's fine.And I'm cool with that. But when they say why and try to break down why its bad or isn't music based on their own bias and prejudice is when I get heated.

  They try not to make it racial issue of why they don't like it, but at its core it is a racial issue and just plain ignorance most of the time. The media has done a thorough job in demonizing a style of music,culture, and in some ways a large demographic of people. Black people did make it easy by acting a fool at times. But it is our music we created for ourselves. We didn't care what anyone else thought about it. Rock went through the same period. As well as punk rock. Hip-Hop gave a voice to the voiceless. And many around the world listened and still listen.
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:iconcourglas:
courglas Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013
I got tired half way through will all of the misinformation you have on any given subject, as you clearly have not studied this in a "higher institute." Yes, African's regulated and started the slave trade in their part of the world. What you think Europeans simply invaded a country with a population as big as Africa's and simply took whoever they wanted? Nope. Didn't happen. I never said anything about black people owning slaves. I said black people were involved in the slave trade. There is a difference. There is difference in owning a car, and owning a dealership. What I'm saying essentially, as according to three sources, that slaves were sold to the Europeans majorly by African's. That's if you want to only talk about America too. Europeans in the America's first choice were "Indians" because they were strong, and were ideal for strong labor, but why would that have been a bad idea? Oh yeah, they were familiar with the land, their own land was already taken, and Europeans killed some many of their people, and then on top of all that ensalve them in their own country? That wouldn't have ended well. Second choice was other Europeans, but here's the problem, if they decided to escape, they would simply blend in. So on to the thrid choice, African's becasue A: the obviously look different. and B: Don't know the land.

You want to talk big, but it's ignorant to ignore other parts of the worlds role in slavery as whole. It doesn't matter how old you are, stupidity comes in all forms an ages. If I called you a kid its because you seem to know so little on the subject as you have clearly demonstrated with your long ass reply that barely covers any points, and vaguely without specific instances or even siting sources. I never made this about race. You did. There's the Irony. I bet you could never even guess my ethnicity even just looking at me, and that's the point. Race isn't even real, it's a construct of human scientists trying to define the differences between other people from different parts of the world, leading finally to a few different scientists who take it out of context. So far, everything I read here is based on the music, not racism. Secondly, I myself never even stated I disliked Hip Hop, and as an individual I've always ignored the media's opinion on things that are subjective like Art(music, writing, visual.) And you're an even bigger ignorant prick if you think we don't learn enough about black people in schools. That's all I ever remember from any of my history classes from public schools, only to find out later, while I'm freshly studying American history that all of the information was misinformation. I bet you don't even know the real story of Rosa Parks.

As a specialist in the field of music, I've listened to plenty of music from the African region of the world, and I like some music, and dislike other music. I'm talking from tribal to modern, and I can tell you right now, I don't see the resemblance. You make the mistake in assuming I haven't actually listened to this music, so now the burden of proof is on your to provide information on music that Hip Hop comes from that is from a time period in Africa before Hip Hop was born. If you want to claim that's where it comes from, your date on the music would have to be hundreds of years old. If I knew of any myself, I'd agree with you, but I do not, so you're really going to have to support that claim. Likewise, simply saying things happened a certain way in history don't make it true. Not to mention National Geographic is unfortunately known for being more showy than informational. I can't even use them as a college level source.

I count my Professor as a source, but my sources are also and otherwise:

American Ethnic Studies
Racial and Ethnic Relations in America Seventh Edition
A Different Mirror: A History of Multicultural America
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:iconbfetish:
Bfetish Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013  Professional Traditional Artist
Uh huh keep telling yourself that.  Frankly you don't know shit.You come in here trying to post facts but there inaccurate. 

*So your in college huh?I graduated from college 16 yrs ago.So proof I'm older than you.You have yet to get out of school so that tells me you don't know shit.Even though you think you do.College just prepares for acquiring knowledge.It isn't the be all end all place for it. You have to seek out knowledge for yourself. Your professors are just there to teach you the skills necessary for you to get a job in succeed in your current area of study 

*I can guess your ethnicity isn't black based on the bullshit you posted. And if you were black you would have said so. But then again many of my people don't know our full history either.So you would be wise to take the information I'm giving you.

*Its obvious I have more life experience and more knowledge on this subject than you do because you haven't disputed none of the facts I've posted.

*You need to study all books on african american history not books on racial and ethnic relations.And your not going to get that all the info you need from the 3 books you listed.Because I've read those and they only tell half truths.And your professor doesn't know everything.

*The proof is that is that you can see it.Even Afrikka Bombata one of the pioneers of Hip-Hops says the roots of Hip-Hop go back as far as Africa. Hip-Hop is just a modernization of what Africans have been doing for centuries. You can even say that most tribal cultures in general practice forms of music that is relative to Hip-Hop.

 "THE ROOTS OF HIP HOP" - RM HIP HOP MAGAZINE 1986

In the beginning there was Africa, and it is from Africa that all today’s black American music, be it Jazz, R'n'B, Soul or Electro, is either directly or indirectly descended. The ancient African tribal rhythms and musical traditions survived the shock of the transportation of milllions of Africans as slaves to the Americas, and after 300 years of slavery in the so called Land of the Free the sounds of Old Africa became the new sounds of black America. Rapping, the rhythmic use of spoken or semi-sung lyrics grew from its roots in the tribal chants and the plantation work songs to become, an integral part of black resistance to an oppresive white society.



* You have heard tribal african music but you didn't listen to it or understand the words being said. You didn't study the music or the culture behind it.So how are you going to tell me or my people that Hip-Hop roots are not African based? Our sense of rhythm as a people is tribal in nature.It stresses beats that are 1,2 based and not 3,4 based like most music from Europe is. Which is why we tend to make fun of most white peoples sense of rhythm because its different from ours. 

*Our tribal roots is one of the few things our slave masters couldn't take away from us.Our culture as a people as whole still has traces of where we originated from.Which is we consider ourselves African American.  If you can't see something so obvious  that's just you being ignorant. 

*If I was being just as ignorant as you are I would say  Brazilians are not part African.But in fact they are.


*The more you post the more ignorant you sound. Europeans first choice were enslaving Native Americans? Riiight. They failed at that.And that totally makes the story of Thanksgiving come off as bullshit.Which in some ways it is. But then again you just proved my point about Europeans oppression of many different ethnic groups.

*And no the majority of slaves were stolen by Europeans. Its funny how history can be skewed when it is told from one point of view.Hundreds of thousands of slaves were brought to America. And not all of them or the majority of them were sold by Africans. Like I said The Dutch and the french took over parts of Africa.The Dutch actually stayed the longest because they created the country of South Africa.Which still exists today. And up until near the end of the 20th century did apartheid end in that country.  You think an aggressive more military advanced culture is going to bargain and actually make deals with a culture that they feel is inferior all the time. No,they did not. 

You know what?Since you got tired and stopped reading half way through my previous post your no longer worth my time.Your not here to gain knowledge or add anything positive to this journal.Your just here to troll something you passionately disagree with. Your also the stubborn type and you want to have the last word however useless it may be.You make make it seem like all wannabe educated white people have issues with Hip-Hop music and black people. Types like you like to keep a brotha down,so to speak. 

Here are some links that will provide more info and better information.That way I don't sound like angry black man who hates white people.Because I don't.I love white people. I got white people in my family tree.These will provide actual factual information. You can choose to read these or not its up to you. But if you don't it just proves your troll and that your a full of shit.

Here is info linking Hip-Hop to Africa and countries that are linked to Africans or black people .Don't you just love the internet ^_^.





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:iconcourglas:
courglas Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013
Actually, I decline to state my age, gender, and ethnicity at all times to avoid bias. Also the fact that you gradutted 16 years ago means you did not read the sources I posted because there have been anywhere to 4 or 5 editions since you last attended school. I am also willing to bet tribes would be in shock and terror if you presented Hip Hop to them as is.

"your not going to get that all the info you need from the 3 books you listed.Because I've read those and they only tell half truths.And your professor doesn't know everything."
This is probably the only relatively true thing you have said so far out of any of your posts.


Youre first source is biased because it was published by a Hip Hop magazine. A lot of the content is also biased. At least my source indiscriminately distributed records, and tallied records sales from all genre's and was not rock based.

The Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) is a trade organization that represents recording industry distributors in the United States. Its members consist of record labels and distributors, which the RIAA say "create, manufacture and/or distribute approximately 85% of all legally sold recorded music in the United States." Again 85%

Your second source is a small not well written, or known article, which even commentators on the post claimed was missing a lot of information, which I agree with.

Your third source. Is your only credible source after reviewing information and it supports some of your claims and happens to some of mine. As far as coming from Africa, it might have better served your claim to say that it was rooted from old traditions, and not simply that it came straight from there, because Hip Hop did not. Hip Hop is not music that is the embodiment of of the African culture, rather Hip Hop is a genre that adopted parts of a culture passed down, along with parts of other musical genre's. I'm also sure plenty of things from the culture slowly faded out over time, and was lost, as is what happens with a lot of cultures in America. You seem to make this one drop rule claim saying "well, as long as there is some African influence on Hip Hop, it is all African Influenced"
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:iconbfetish:
Bfetish Featured By Owner Sep 8, 2013  Professional Traditional Artist
Ah Ha! More Bullshit
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(1 Reply)
:icondagoth-jeff:
dagoth-jeff Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013  Hobbyist Writer

Oh. My. God. Move. The. Fuck. On.

Stop acting like 1)slavery happened yesterday and 2)you were a slave

Do yourself, your people and the rest of us a favor and MOVE. ON.

Stop acting like White America didn't elect a black president for Christ's sakes.

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:iconbfetish:
Bfetish Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013  Professional Traditional Artist
1.) If slavery didn't happen I wouldn't be here. 

2.) We had to move on because we have contributed greatly to this countries success. And the government has shown that they will put a foot up our ass if we get too angry or build up a strong sense of community.Yet we can't fully move on because its a part of this nations history and a part of who we are as culture.It made us who we are today.And  racism and discrimination still exists against my people based on the color of our skin and who we are as a people.

Yes white america had a hand in electing a black president but so did everyone else. The irony is that young white people helped get Obama in office, yet old white people are cock blocking everything he tries to pass through congress. In Obama's re-election Latino vote won it for him

I also find it funny that when white people get called out on the ignorant things they say concerning black people or our culture and the discussion gets racial they always say this

 "Oh. My. God. Move. The. Fuck. On."

LOL
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:icondagoth-jeff:
dagoth-jeff Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013  Hobbyist Writer

1) You don't know that, as a "melting pot" we have many varying cultures and peoples here from across the world, the fact that you might still be a goat herder in kenya is pretty ridiculous. Plenty of African-cultured folks are great engineers in America, as real "African Americans."

2) I don't know how to respond to that but racism exists everywhere on all levels--one thing that's ignored is racism against whites from non-whites, because everything else is a "hate crime." Does that even make sense?

Old white people don't give a damn, they're either democrats on his side, or they're not. Just like anyone else. Political difference has nothing to do with race. And latinos are confused because...hello?!? No one wants to support law-breaking illegals from Mexico, because, imagine that, it's illegal and they're breaking the law.

When you say "our culture" you're drawing a line and segregating yourself, buddy, that's what this whole attitude does. Dr. King would be rolling over in his grave concerning today's progress, it's just America, we're all Americans and have American culture. It doesn't have to be complicated.

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:iconbfetish:
Bfetish Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013  Professional Traditional Artist

1) You don't know that, as a "melting pot" we have many varying cultures and peoples here from across the world, the fact that you might still be a goat herder in kenya is pretty ridiculous. Plenty of African-cultured folks are great engineers in America, as real"African Americans."


Oh I know what the term "melting pot" is.When I was in my teens and early 20's I used that term a lot.But I was also naive at that age. The real world is full of bullshit on all sides and you've just proved it with your previous post. Everyone loves each other until we disagree or have something that the other wants or we are just  out to get someone."Melting Pot" is a term often thrown around by people who are truly ignorant of the bullshit concerning people in general.


2) I don't know how to respond to that but racism exists everywhere on all levels--one thing that's ignored is racism against whites from non-whites, because everything else is a "hate crime." Does that even make sense?

Wow yeah white people got it bad.You guys experience just a fraction ,just a taste of discrimination ad you feel you felt the true ramifications of racism.  White people as a whole in this country were not denied the right to vote(unless you were a white woman),lynched,considered 1/3 of human, force to sit in the back of the bus, brutally murdered and raped just for the color of their skin. That is institutionalized racism. Racism that was government endorsed and controlled. Sure Jews and a few other white immigrants that came here got discriminated against once they revealed who they were.But they were still treated better than black people were. I've noted the sarcasm in your post though. 



Old white people don't give a damn, they're either democrats on his side, or they're not. Just like anyone else. Political difference has nothing to do with race. And latinos are confused because...hello?!? No one wants to support law-breaking illegals from Mexico, because, imagine that, it's illegal and they're breaking the law.

Wow...Hook, line, and sinker. So why are you still posting here?


"When you say "our culture" you're drawing a line and segregating yourself, buddy, that's what this whole attitude does. Dr. King would be rolling over in his grave concerning today's progress, it's just America, we're all Americans and have American culture. It doesn't have to be complicated."

Yeah we are all american's but at the end of the day we all know who is in charge and who has the power in this country. Dr King served his purpose in getting people just to tolerate and accept one another.He ended what could of been a race war that my people would've have lost. So instead of having bloodshed on both sides Dr King was a messenger.His message was a peaceful solution.And just because he was a man of peace didn't mean  he just accepted white peoples bullshit. He spoke his mind about everything and some of it wasn't so nice. He was very smart he knew that in order to win he couldn't stoop to his oppressors level. You would know these things if you actually knew about Dr King


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(1 Reply)
:icondagoth-jeff:
dagoth-jeff Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Last paragraph, yes I hate this damned formula. Now it's everywhere, I don't understand how some of these tone-deaf artists even have a career.
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:iconocarinaplaya:
Ocarinaplaya Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013
So long as there is an audience, there will be hip hop. Poor urban people connect with it on a much deeper level than people who know better. Even though the formula has been done to death, impressionable youth and weak-minded adults will continue to make the art form lucrative enough to continue it's stale existence.

You may have noticed how not many people put out albums anymore but, rather, single tracks. Pretty lazy, but it makes them a pretty penny to space out individual tracks instead of lumping 13 or so songs together and getting only a percentage of what they could be earning selling each song one-at-a-time.
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:icondagoth-jeff:
dagoth-jeff Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
I don't see how this even got a DD, to be honest. Of course I say this about most DD's.
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:iconocarinaplaya:
Ocarinaplaya Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013
It's managed to spark discussion. So that may be a reason.
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:iconcourglas:
courglas Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013
I was thinking that also, but it only sparked discussion because people like us challenged it whether we like Hip Hop or not, which clearly had defendants. I still have yet to see the artist reply to anyone though...
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:icondagoth-jeff:
dagoth-jeff Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Yeah, fair enough.
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:iconbfetish:
Bfetish Featured By Owner Sep 5, 2013  Professional Traditional Artist
"So long as there is an audience, there will be hip hop. Poor urban people connect with it on a much deeper level than people who know better. Even though the formula has been done to death, impressionable youth and weak-minded adults will continue to make the art form lucrative enough to continue it's stale existence."


Wow.....

You sound exactly like the wannabe intellectuals who talked about rock music being the "devil's music" during the 50's and 60's. And rock music is still around today. 

I used to think the same way you did until I actually decided to listen to the music. Even though I lived in the hood I told myself "I'm not like them,I know better." But after I began experiencing and seeing the day to day reality that many Hip-Hop songs were about I realized that I may not have a hood mentality but I was raised in the hood. And I was treated and discriminated just the same as everyone else. So its not just about being poor or "knowing better" its about sharing and experiencing similar things that others can relate too. And many people whether your black,white, asian,latino,ect have experienced being poor or dealt with unfair treatment because of where they come from.

Rock music was the same way in its early days.It was a simple form of expression through music. When you express anything that disrupts or questions the status quo your going to either  piss people off or scare them.


  I feel the real reason people don't put out full albums is...

* Because a lot of the most talented individuals don't get signed by major labels.The cost in producing a full album is not something most artists can cover.

*The ones that do it are the ones truly passionate about the music they create.

* It may seem pretty lazy to put together a track or a beat.But it does take hours of studio time and work to produce music in general. And time in a studio is not cheap.

* Many Hip-Hop artists back in the day produced mix tapes or CD's  of their work.They sold these out of the trunk of their car.Nowadays all you need is a PC,internet connection,a camera with a mic, and you can open up a youtube account and get your street cred that way. Either by doing freestyle videos or post your music tracks just to get noticed.

*You don't need to be signed by a major label in order to get your work out there and profit from it.

*Most indie full albums are usually 9 to 13 tracks anyway.


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:iconocarinaplaya:
Ocarinaplaya Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2013
Neat.
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